Freddie and Milkman's conversation at the end of the chapter really intrigued me. The whole "strange stuff goin on right in this here town" (110) really caught my attention. Although Freddie is known to be a huge gossiper, it seems like a lot of what he says is stemmed from the truth, and there's definitely something odd happening. It surprised me when Freddie said that Milkman should ask Corinthians for answers because she might know something. In the chapters preceding this one, we didn't really know much about Corinthians and who her character is besides basic information. But now it seems like she might have a more important role in the future.
This chapter was the first real turning point for me. We never really saw Milkman as an outsider from society until now. During his argument with Guitar, we see that Milkman is sometimes seen as having "high tone friends," and Guitar even goes so far to say "You don't live nowhere." (103) We've never really had a comparison economically between the Dead family and the rest of town, and I even thought Macon tried to make it look like he had money even though they didn't. Apparently they do, considering they're friends with people "owning beach houses." (103) I think this chapter may change my perception of Milkman even more than the previous one, and I'm excited to see where the story leads from here, as it seems like some tension is building.
This is the first time it has really registered for my how much actual history Morrison is incorporating into the story. First with the story of Emmett Till and now talking about how the other African American people in the town were beginning to fight against the whites. Morrison uses Guitar for this role and Freddie even hints that Corinthians knows something about the "Strange stuff goin on right in this here town" (110) The fact that they may be hiding a killer, though, is exciting and perplexing at the same time and the fact that Morrison is using smaller characters (Guitar and Corinthians) is very interesting as well. I'm excited to see how the relationship between Milkman and Corinthians might change if he talks to her about the "strange stuff" (110). -Bianca Dempsey
To me this chapter was really sad. It seemed like no one was happy. Milkman wasn't happy with his life and he was growing apart from his only friend really, Guitar, and after their fight about Milkman's life I wonder what their relationship will be like in the future. I also thought it was really sad that he felt like everyone was moving in the opposite direction as him. I also thought that it was interesting that Morrison added that he didn't really care about the Civil Rights movement that was happening at the same time as the story, saying that "the racial problems that consumed Guitar were the most boring of all" 107. It is usually portrayed as something that all black people supported but here it seems like Milkman couldn't care less. I also wonder how Guitar and Corinthians are related. According to Freddie they both know about the "strange stuff goin on" (110). I'm curious to see how that's going to develop, especially since Corinthians was never an independent character.
I liked this chapter a lot, but I agree with Hali that this chapter was also very sad. I think that Morrison primarily used this chapter to show Milkman's relationships to the other people in his community. In the last chapter, Milkman notices the other side of Not Doctor Street being empty and in this chapter he recognizes it again after his argument with Guitar: "He remembered that long-ago evening after he hit his father how everybody was crammed on one side of the street, going the direction he was coming from" (106). The events in this chapter, such as Milkman's boredom with Hagar, odd disconnection with his mother, his fight with Guitar (and Guitar's analysis that Milkman "don't live nowhere" (103)), and his feelings of resentment towards all of the men involved in the politics/conceptions of the Civil Rights Movement prove that Milkman has reached a turning point where he must make a choice. He does not seem to fit in with the rest of his community, so I believe he must make a radical choice/change in his way of life. I think Morrison is heavily foreshadowing that Milkman will soon walk on the other side of the street. -Anna
I really enjoyed this chapter, mostly because of Milkman's description of his relationship with Hagar. He seems to only enjoy her company when she plays games with him and won't come to him easily, but as time goes on she obviously begins to grow old of this routine, and as Morrison says, "Hagar was thirty-six and nervous" (98) and she wants to start a family. This sentiment is exactly what turns Milkman off. Another part that interested me was the fact that in addition to sleeping with Hagar, he also was seeing the "read-headed bitch" (103) from the wealthy family, and yet he won't commit to either.
This chapter really expands on milkman a lot. As Milkman noticed himself he has been diverging at least since the day that he punched his father and walked on the other side of the road meaning that he has been this way for roughly 10 years (early 20's to 31). Milkman has become really isolated by the end of his chapter as he is bored of Hagar and the whole town. He has been diverging with Guitar for quite awhile but only really noticed after Guitar pointed out how different they are. This shows that Milkman wants to think that he is the same as Guitar who in turn represents the common people but in actions takes a "higher tone" and clearly shows some elitists tendencies furthered by his involvement with the honore and the beach house owners. I had thought hitting Macon was an act of defiance but it seems Milkman has become more and more like his father in his profession and thoughts. He is clearly unsure of what he wants in life and also clearly ignorant of the situations in the town as pointed out by Freddie. His experience almost seems like an adolescent crisis of confusion even though he his now in his 30's.
I really enjoyed, after Macon had explained to Milkman the situation with Macon and Ruth, when Milkman was over analyzing the situation with his mother and grandfather.He would come up with theory after theory about the twisted relationships between Dr. Foster and Ruth and then about his relationship with Ruth and then dismiss them right after coming up with them.I think in a way this draws a parallel between Macon and Milkman because it is clear Macon went through the same process when he first found Ruth naked with death Dr. Foster, of hypothesizing and dismissing his unpleasant thoughts because he didn't really want to believe any of them were true. I also liked it because it speaks to real life in that if you over think anything it blows it out of proportion. ~Lily
My favorite part of this chapter was when after talking to Guitar, Milkman finds himself walking down the street where "everyone was going the other way". I think this was a very good example of Milkman realizing that he isn't exactly leading his life into any productive place, his lack of commitment to either Hagar or any of the other women, his uncomortable relationship with his family, and his lack of involvement with much else not having to do with the path his father lay out for him. The entire wold is walking with certainty in one direction, whereas Milkman is struggling to fight the crowd, getting "shoved" as people disregard him and go on there way. -Lena
What interests me most so far is how few of the characters seem to have any range. As Guitar pointed out, Milkman is a very predictable person who enjoys his comforts and avoids seriousness at all costs. He is the opposite of his father, who is always very serious. Hagar is unstable in many ways, but I still don't feel as though she's a deep character we're yet to understand, I think her personality is defined by how unstable she is. The sisters never receive much personality, Reba is consistent in only being represented as helpless with men, and Guitar is often quite the stubborn pessimist. The two characters who I personally have trouble understanding and therefore predicting are Pilate and Ruth. Both have many defining features, like Plate's singing and defense of her family, but chapter by chapter we are scraping further down into the core of who they are. Once again I'm surprised at how little depth the main character has compared to his mom and aunt. ~Rebecca
While reading chapter 4 I felt like Milkmen is trying to find himself and Morrison is showing this because the chapter goes in a fast pace from Milkmen’s thoughts to feelings and actions. Milkmen does not know who he is. While he goes Christmas Shopping he feels he can not find anything good for Hagar his lover, he feels that she is not exciting anymore in the relationship. Milkmen describes their relationship as something “… free, abundant, it had lost its fervor…”(pg 91) Milkmen losing the excitement of loving Hagar scares Milkmen because loving Hagar held him together from his weird family. I think how it is really interesting how Milkmen has to hold on something such as Hagar to feel like he is wanted. Milkmen knows that when he lets go of Hagar and that is what he did in the end of the chapter he is going to feel really empty inside but by the end of the chapter he felt better like something has changed and he wanted to change, he thought to himself "he ought to get married... Maybe I should too..." (pg 107)
The back and forth dialogue shows us a lot more about what kind of people the characters are because of the kind of interactions they have with one another. However, we only interpret the conversations to portray certain things because Morrison develops our perceptions for us. For example, we only see Hagar as "odd, funny, quirky company, spoiled, but artlessly so..." because Morrison lays out her traits. (98) While Hagar's words in conversation do not contradict Milkman's description of her, they would not cause us to deduce that Hagar is an unusual person. Additionally, we learn the most about Milkman through what Guitar tells him about his personality. Prior to when Guitar asks Milkman, "What do you call a lecture? When YOU don't talk for two seconds? When you have to listen to somebody else instead of talk? Is that a lecture?" the reader would never randomly assume that Milkman tends to dominate conversation. (103) We also never see the contrast between what Guitar and Milkman focus on until Guitar accuses Milkman of having a shallow lifestyle.
While reading chapter 4, I found Milkman's disinterest to be intriguing. He has completely lost interest in Hagar. His reason for this is simply "her refisal to make him hustle for it, work for it, do something difficult for it" (91). However, it is mentioned that Hagar and Milkman had been together for "more than a dozen years" (91). This made me wonder...why is Milkman just deciding to break up with her now? Is he finally looking to grow up and leave his boyhood crush behind? It seems odd to me that even though Milkman has obviously thought about this a lot, and been displeased with his relationship for a while, it's taken him until now to actually let Hagar go.
We find out even more about Milkman by the way he treats Hagar. It reminded me of Gatsby's love for Daisy, in the sense that it is potentially superficial. Milkman is mesmerized by Hagar for so long, he chases after her and longs to be with her. But it's the chase that apparently held his interest for so many years. Once he actually gets her, and she stops going back and forth in letting him have her, he loses interest. it's interesting to see how that relationship so quickly changes. Now, it's Hagar who is dependent on Milkman and is devoted to him. When Milkman eventually breaks it off, Hagar is more effected than Milkman first anticipated.
I also find it horrifying how he describes her as a third beer. No girl should ever be considered a third beer. "What difference does it make?" Well, it should make a great deal of difference. If Hagar was aware that this is how Milkman viewed her, and stayed with him, having sex with him, shame on her.
I find it slightly odd that Milkman and Hagar are technically related. They have some sort of relationship in which Milkman sort of emulates Macon's behavior to Ruth in the first chapter of the novel. In addition, Milkman ruins his friendship with Guitar. It seems as though this novel follows the cliché that though we all doomed to become our parents, despite tireless efforts to avoid it. In chapter 3, Milkman alters his appearance to avoid looking like his father. This chapter highlights the similarities between Milkman and Macon. -Ofir Lebenthal
I really enjoyed this chapter because it was the first time we've seen Milkman actually think about his life seriously. Before, he had started to think about Hagar and started to think about his job, but here, after his conversation with Guitar, he realizes that "if he had to spend the rest of his life thinking about rents and property, he;'d lose his mind... But he was going to spend the reset of his life doing just that, wasn't he?" (107) Not only does Milkman start to think ahead to where his life is going, he realizes that this direction may not be the right one for him. Therefore, I think soon he is going to make some big changes in his life.
I found chapter 4 to be incredibly interesting. Nothing strange involving Ruth happened and I was fully immersed in the story Morrison wrote out. At the moment, it is interesting how Milkman has become so distant from Guitar. Towards the end of the chapter, we learn that Guitar has been acting weird around Milkman, because he may be helping Empire State, who possibly killed a white child. It was also interesting to learn more abou the relationship between Milkman and Hagar. I do find it weird that they're cousins, but it should not be a surprise since this family is absolutely bizarre! Finally though I am really enjoying this novel because it has a really interesting plot.
The relationship between Hagar and Milkman is an interesting one. Milkman sees her as more of a distraction than an actual love interest. Things like love and sex are almost like material pleasures to him, which reminded me of Macon and his attitude towards Ruth. Despite his frivolous attitude, which are a direct retaliation against his father and an attempt to become essentially the opposite of Macon, I think he is somewhat similar. While he doesn't have direct similarities to his father, its almost as if he and his father have the same faults of not properly valuing the important things in their life, such as their relationships or there friends. The entire process of Guitar and Milkman growing farther apart is reminiscent of Macon's stone cold actions as a businessman taking over his actual personality. -JD Nurme
There is really no positive depiction of women in this entire book. Hagar is too old, clingy, and no longer alluring; Pilate is a crazy person that will go through any means of protecting her children, even if it's nearly cutting a means heart open; Reba is meek and falls in love too easily. She just searches and gives everything she has for love, making her dependent on men. Ruth is strange and creepy for reasons we still have not discovered. She also had no motivation or drive to live, she plants bulbs because she has to, not because it makes her happy. Milkman's sisters are dry and boring. Why are women portrayed to negatively if the author is a woman herself?
Are the men portrayed any better?! I personally think Morrison has written Pilate in a pretty idealized way--according to Morrison's ideals, that is--but I appreciate your perspective!
This book is getting weirder and weirder, and I'm really liking it. The "dream" that Milkman has is shocking, and weird, and I'm sure it has some hidden meaning that I just don't understand, but that's ok. The idea of Ruth almost being eaten by carnivorous tulips is a nightmarish thought. As far as Danielle's point about there being no likable women in the book, I would put it the other way around and say there are no likable men. The men in this book are almost uniformly misogynistic; the only really likable one to an extent is guitar, but he is whiny and self-righteous. Pilate on the other hand is awesome, strong in mind, body, and personality, if a little off in the head. When she sticks her knife into Reba's abusive boyfriend, I was very happy because finally there is someone doing an awesome action, being strong and resisting wrongdoing in a positive way without alterior motives. I just think in general most of the characters in this book are very messed up and are dislikable. ~Daniel Krane
I really enjoy the book and find Milkman an interesting character to read about but the way in which the book is written is really starting to bother me. The jumping around from place to place as well as different ages is getting increasingly confusing.I enjoyed when Guitar was lecturing Milkman basically saying that Milkman needed to grow up and see the issues of the world, but I find it frusterating as the reader to not be able to track Milkman's child-like behavior on my own and make connections because it is too difficult to figure out what age he is at what time. ~Lily
While reading Chapter Four I became more intrigued with the ongoing trait of Milkman only wanting what he cant have. This is very apparent with his relationship with Hagar. When Milkman and Hagar initially become involved Milkman is very interested while Hagar "teases" him. However, once Hagar displays her interest in Milkman he only continues the relationship because of the sexual contact and not because of his emotional interest in her. I feel as though this derives from Milkman's very sheltered lifestyle that started at young age. Jake Bamberger
As Jake and many others said, Milkman enjoys the games Hagar use to play with him, but now that she is just putting herself out there for him, he has begun to lose emotional interest. Again, Milkman experiences more and more confusion as he enters his adult life. And on top of Milkman's love life confusion, his talk with Freddie must have left him thinking as well. Freddie leads Milkman on like he knows of something, but won't tell him exactly what, "Yep. Some strange goings on round here. But don't put my name in it if you hear anything"(111). Freddie gets Milkman thinking, but won't give him too much information. -Jack Corcoran
I found it very interesting how Milkman only seemed interested in something that confused him. When he was spurned and abused by Hagar, he was obsessed with her, yet one they understood each other she became boring. On the same note, he does not like real estate because he knows it, and now that he has begun to understand the relationship between his parents and in a smaller way the family dynamic, he immediately wants to be anywhere but home.
I agree with Jake somewhat but I also think that Milkman's feelings stem from his never really being satisfied. The beginning of their relationship was somewhat of a cat and mouse game with Hagar teasing Milkman, but once Hagar devoted herself more to Milkman he didn't like it. Immediately, "he tried to think of a way out" (98). I think, for a multitude of reasons, Milkman thought of his relationship with Hagar as a fling. He tries to mature and turn into his own man and does so by ending his relationship with Hagar and moving on.
So far I have really enjoyed The Song of Solomon. I find it particularly interesting that none of the characters seem to be able to find a happy balance. Macon has taken the role of humorless, hard working and cold, scary man, Ruth is teetering around finding happiness in the small, semi masochistic ways (tormenting her husband and planting flowers that may or may not kill her), Pilate is a crazy, protective, mother nature figure, Milkman is a lost looser, Hagar is the spoiled one, Reba gives everything away, and Guitar is quickly becoming Mr. Philosophy and life lessons. These characters are far from one dimensional, they are very complex, however they all seem to be extremes. Furthermore none of these extremes seem to compliment each other particularly well. ~Marie Kolarik
I really enjoyed the part when Hagar read Milkman's break up letter and sets off "to find MIlkman Dead." (P.99) I think this is a great foreshadow to the upcoming parts of the book and I also found it very humorous. As if by being born with such a depressing last name inevitably brings you to face death in the most horrible way. I also enjoyed that Milkman is aware that sleeping with his cousin is wrong, maybe he's more similar to his twisted mom than we think.
Sleeping with cousins is a long tradition among many cultures, and is only seen as "wrong" be some cultures. Among European royalty, for instance, marrying cousins was not just okay, it was positively encouraged!
I am enjoying song of solomon so far, mainly because I enjoy seeing the family dynamics develop as well as the characters. They are changing but not necessarily improving. Milkman changes a lot throughout the first 4 chapters and shifts through large periods of time, but he doesn't seem to mature in a positive way. I like this aspect because I'm excited to see what crazy things Milkman will do next. -Chloe Fishman
I was really enjoying Song of Solomon but this chapter and chapter three has made the book less enjoyable. I enjoy books more when the main character is someone who I can easily root for or like. And as the book is going on I am starting to like Milkman less, like Guitar said, he is quite a spoiled guy who only thinks about himself and as I read I keep hoping that on the next page to come Milkman will have a revelation and change for the better but I have a sinking feeling that this won't be happening any time soon. Ella MacVeagh
MM will change, but for me he never becomes really appealing, and like you I enjoy the book less because of it--but I still do enjoy it, because it's so densely and richly written...
In Chapter Four of the Big Book of Incest, a lot changes. Guess what stays the same? I'm hopeful for an incest-less chapter in the coming pages now that Milkman has dumped Hagar, but I've been burned before. Time is moving very fast in the book so far. We've traveled 30 years in four chapters. Either Morrison will slow down or we'll be reading about Milkman's grandkids by the end of the book, assuming he leaves his aimless bachelor phase and starts a family. Given the book's focus on family so far, that could be a logical place for the plot to go. If we do get there, it will probably be after a lot of painful character development on the part of THE MILKMAN. I'll admit, I have no idea where this book is going, other than chronologically forward. There are a lot of plot threads and whatnot. Top notch stuff.
The relationship over the years between Hagar and Milkman is fascinating and is easily relatable to other adolescents and their relationships. By the time Milkman is seventeen he loses his "twelve-year-old's adoration" (98) for Hagar. Milkman is just like many other boys his age, and not soon after Hagar fell for him, he stopped viewing her as unobtainable. Milkman progressively becomes less and less interested in Hagar and after stretching "his carefree boyhood out for thirty-one years" (98) he dumps her. Throughout this entire ordeal we question Milkman's sincerity about feelings toward Hagar. Morrison makes us question Milkman's sincerity by adding the simple phrase "he would say", showing that Milkman is saying that the breakup "hurt him" more as a formality.
This chapter continues to deepen the level of strange family dynamics going on in the story. There is also a lot going on that seems a bit scattered and Morrison brings up many themes and historical references that haven't yet seemed to completely connect. One thing, however, is quite clear. This family is messed up! Not only is the relationship between Hagar and Milkman strange, but it is even going on after Pilate said that they should treat each other like brother and sister. It feels like Morrison is throwing a bunch of stories in the background and constantly bringing them to the surface whenever its convenient. Not that it isn't a well written book but I do hope that it begins to converge on a coherent plot. We have incest/love, coming of age, family, and even some racial topics that are brought up. A positive thing I do have to say is that the historical references certainly strengthen Guitar's passion for his cause, especially after what we talked about in class. The pace also seems a bit jumbled. The book seems to jump around Milkman's life to the most exciting parts, which in itself isn't a bad idea, but its hard to keep track of everything that's going on when there are two to ten year gaps.
Each time we are presented with an apparent turning point for milkman in the story, we are immediately reminded of the small child which resides in the now 32 year old body. I would think that after the profound metaphor of people in the street, or the strange conversation with Macon, some character development would start to kick in. Unfortunately, the only thing changed so far is that Milkman starts to notice that his life is worthless, yet he is determined to do nothing about it. I guess these sudden personality changes are more for Rocky Balboa montages than anything else, but i would assume that something would happen within the many years Morrison skips over throughout the book. Milkman lives his life like he did as a child, frivolously having sex with relatives, drinking with the local workers, and being oblivious. Morrison tricks the reader with proverbial red herrings over and over, lulling us into a false sense that the story will finally pick up, but so far no such luck. Eventually she will have to start the imminent personal journey which Milkman must embark on, and I'm hoping he starts soon. -Mike w
While I found the talk of ghosts interesting, my mind kept coming back to when Pilate took the knife. We may take this scene for granted since we are very familiar with this idea of a calm killer (even though she didn't kill the man). But at the time, this idea was fairly new. If this was written earlier, Pilate might have grabbed the knife, ran out, and and actually stabbed him. But instead she channeled her emotions and kept a steady hand. When I was "watching" it happen, I thought she would just hold it to his neck. When she actually stabbed him, that really surprised me. Not that she wasn't capable of it, but that Morrison would actually have her do that. I also found it weird that right after this arguably traumatic event, Milkman and Hagar go into the house and have sex. I suppose that sort of scene (Pilate getting violent) wasn't all that unusual for them, but it was for me, and it seemed like a weird place to go to after that happened.
I found it very interesting in chapter four how Milkman doesn't really care about Hagar and is indifferent to her being there. He doesn't want to be in a relationship there are merely engages in sexual relations with her primarily because she is there at his disposal. I thought it was amusing that he was with Hagar for upwards of a decade, with no interest in becoming serious or marriage, and then decides to write her a letter telling her they are no longer going to see each other. I thought this was interesting because one, at this point Milkman is in his 30's and should be mature enough to face his problems head on, and two the letter shows that Milkman is very feeble in weak in the sense that he does have the character enough to talk to Hagar one on one. This chapter tells a lot about Milkman and his substance as a character.
This chapter showed Milkman realizing a lot of things about himself. He realizes how different him and Guitar really are. Milkman always seemed to look up to Guitar as a sort of role model. Realizing that he is so different from Guitar, who in a way represents the regular societally normal black man, leaves Milkman feeling isolated. This feeling of isolation only grows as he get more and more bored with Hagar.
It seems that Milkman's depression seems to deepen through every chapter. After he finally begins a romantic relationship with Hagar, who Milkman adored from the moment he layed his eyes on, he never seems to truly appreciate her as a girlfriend, but more of as an object, or a "third beer." Another important part of his childhood that he strays away from is his best friend, Guitar. I think these negative decisions are vaugely affected by his father. Just as Macon Dead hates the lower class, Milkman feels no affection towards his childhood sweetheart because of her lower social class.
Each chapter seems to revolve around a different stage or process in Milkman's life, in the last it was about his coming of age and self discovery, whereas in this chapter he is discovering his relationships and how he relates with others. For example, he emits a trend of deteriorating relationships, such as his relationships with Hagar and Guitar. In this chapter he grows farther apart from his closest and only childhood friend (Guitar). He also becomes bored with his girlfriend, Hagar, who he views as just a sexual object after she stops their chase and shows him how much she loves him. Whether it's because of his parent's terrible relationship or because of some other reason, Milkman clearly has a relationship problem with people around him (he seems to lose interest quickly in people he once cared greatly for. -Siena
This chapter shows milkman growing up an changi in a lot of ways. His relationship with guitar is changing a lot and not for the better. In chapter 3 milkmans dialogue didn't seem to fit the vocabulary of a 22 yr old, but in this chapter now that he is 31 he sounds much older and more world weary.
I've enjoyed reading Song of Solomon so far. I'm intrigued as to how Milkman's character will develop over the course of the rest of the novel since so far, he has yet to change much--he has "stretched his carefree boyhood out for thirty-one years" (98) and continues to live his hedonistic lifestyle without giving any thought to serious issues. He has followed in his father's footsteps in completely devaluing women; perhaps the most disturbing example of this is how he refers to Hagar as his "private honey pot" and, even worse, a "third beer" (91). He cares about nothing--not money, politics, racial issues--and he is becoming increasingly disconnected from Guitar and the rest of the black community. On a side note, I found the passage about Winnie Ruth very interesting. During that time period, many whites used the same logic about black urban violence, so I think it's interesting to read the reverse: "white madness" accounts for the murders, which are considered "lunatic," whereas all murders perpetrated by blacks were "for good reasons" (100).
Well, I don't really know what your asking,but I liked chapter 4. My favorite part was when Freddie is talking to Milkman about ghosts. I thought it was funny how Freddie is convinced how there is a white bull running around. I think the white bull could be a white doctor, since it took Freddie after he was born. I also liked the time shifts in the chapter because the shifts showed how Milkman matures in a interesting way.
I am enjoying the constant drama of this book, however have begun to realize that seems as though Milkman slowly and slowly has less people he can trust in this town especially when he finds out that Guitar may have been involved in the death of a white boy. It seems that the story has really stepped out of the family and is now only focusing on Milkman, So i wonder and hope that Morisson somehow brings the story back to where it began (which I'm sure she will because she is a very clever author). Also, the conversation with the janitor reveals that maybe Milkman is becoming a "whole man" because he is living life on his own and I think learning a lot about himself and who he wants to be.
In this chapter, the reader gets an even greater insight of Milkmans problems, and his insecurities. He does not seem to fit in with the rest of society, and takes every oppurtunity he can to prove this to the reader. Wether it be his argument with Guitar, or his weird distant relationship with his mother, Milkman seems to have become very strange. The tension in this book is running high, and im interested to see what comes of it.
I like the timing of the book - jumping from the present to multiple distinct points in Milkman's story compliments one's natural train of thought. The first incident - at Pilate's house - is well made because it serves both to explain the plot and to add crucial information on Pilate, Reba and Hagar's personalities that doesn't directly pertain to the current situation. The second one is necessary to set up the break in Guitar and Milkman's friendship, to illustrate their impossible differences, but I feel like it is a bit too much. The third incident seems to add the least to the story, but it is a pleasant switch of mood and atmosphere.
I think it is interesting how Guitar and Milkman begin to go down separate paths in chapter 4, and may even be a reflection of the larger divide happening within the black community in the 1960s. Lines like "Bayonet, friend" (101) and "Belleau Wood" (101) (which is actually not possible due to the no black Marine Corps policy during WW1) show how the World Wars, where African Americans began to see the rest of the world, began to give blacks a different view of their world. This new world view was transferred to Guitar who "love to kill [Orval Faubus]." (101) Guitar's desire to kill a white governor represents the growing Black Power movement in the 1960s that claimed to seek equality through force. Additionally, Guitar's "bushy... hair" (101) is indicative of the rebellious hippie movement of the 1960s as well that had some connection to the Black Power movement. These movements (represented by Guitar) clashed with the bulk of society (represented by Milkman) who both came to the realization that they "can't always think the same way about things." (102) Moreover, this chapter's conflict between Guitar and Milkman brings to a small scale, the conflict between the "mainstream" and diverging movements of the 1960s specifically in black America. -Colby
I think that one of the great ironies of this chapter is how Milkman -- perhaps unconsciously -- becomes increasingly similar to Macon Jr.; particularly, it's ironic that, before, he would do everything possible to outwardly separate himself from his father, like by growing out his facial hair and smoking. Yet now, in how Milkman's relationship with Hagar evolves, we can actually see a clear parallel with how Macon Jr. treats Ruth.
For instance, note Milkman's evolution from being absolutely transfixed with Hagar to sending her a letter that indicates the end of their relationship. At first, "From the time he first saw her, when he was twelve and she was seventeen, he was deeply in love with her..."(92) Yet, Milkman now describes Hagar as a "third beer"(91), clearly showing a lack of respect and indifference towards her. Later, we learn that although Milkman appears to be kindly departing her, she is impacted terribly be his seemingly innocent words, as "the flat-out coldness of 'thank you'... sent Hagar spinning into a bright blue place where the air was thin..."(99)
Finally, we learn of Milkman's indifference and cavalier attitude when he states, "He was still distracted and edgy, and all of it was not because of the problem of Hagar."(99) This is telling, because such a long lasting relationship clearly did not have any impression on him.
Freddie and Milkman's conversation at the end of the chapter really intrigued me. The whole "strange stuff goin on right in this here town" (110) really caught my attention. Although Freddie is known to be a huge gossiper, it seems like a lot of what he says is stemmed from the truth, and there's definitely something odd happening. It surprised me when Freddie said that Milkman should ask Corinthians for answers because she might know something. In the chapters preceding this one, we didn't really know much about Corinthians and who her character is besides basic information. But now it seems like she might have a more important role in the future.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter was the first real turning point for me. We never really saw Milkman as an outsider from society until now. During his argument with Guitar, we see that Milkman is sometimes seen as having "high tone friends," and Guitar even goes so far to say "You don't live nowhere." (103) We've never really had a comparison economically between the Dead family and the rest of town, and I even thought Macon tried to make it look like he had money even though they didn't. Apparently they do, considering they're friends with people "owning beach houses." (103) I think this chapter may change my perception of Milkman even more than the previous one, and I'm excited to see where the story leads from here, as it seems like some tension is building.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time it has really registered for my how much actual history Morrison is incorporating into the story. First with the story of Emmett Till and now talking about how the other African American people in the town were beginning to fight against the whites. Morrison uses Guitar for this role and Freddie even hints that Corinthians knows something about the "Strange stuff goin on right in this here town" (110) The fact that they may be hiding a killer, though, is exciting and perplexing at the same time and the fact that Morrison is using smaller characters (Guitar and Corinthians) is very interesting as well. I'm excited to see how the relationship between Milkman and Corinthians might change if he talks to her about the "strange stuff" (110).
ReplyDelete-Bianca Dempsey
To me this chapter was really sad. It seemed like no one was happy. Milkman wasn't happy with his life and he was growing apart from his only friend really, Guitar, and after their fight about Milkman's life I wonder what their relationship will be like in the future. I also thought it was really sad that he felt like everyone was moving in the opposite direction as him. I also thought that it was interesting that Morrison added that he didn't really care about the Civil Rights movement that was happening at the same time as the story, saying that "the racial problems that consumed Guitar were the most boring of all" 107. It is usually portrayed as something that all black people supported but here it seems like Milkman couldn't care less. I also wonder how Guitar and Corinthians are related. According to Freddie they both know about the "strange stuff goin on" (110). I'm curious to see how that's going to develop, especially since Corinthians was never an independent character.
ReplyDeleteI liked this chapter a lot, but I agree with Hali that this chapter was also very sad. I think that Morrison primarily used this chapter to show Milkman's relationships to the other people in his community. In the last chapter, Milkman notices the other side of Not Doctor Street being empty and in this chapter he recognizes it again after his argument with Guitar: "He remembered that long-ago evening after he hit his father how everybody was crammed on one side of the street, going the direction he was coming from" (106). The events in this chapter, such as Milkman's boredom with Hagar, odd disconnection with his mother, his fight with Guitar (and Guitar's analysis that Milkman "don't live nowhere" (103)), and his feelings of resentment towards all of the men involved in the politics/conceptions of the Civil Rights Movement prove that Milkman has reached a turning point where he must make a choice. He does not seem to fit in with the rest of his community, so I believe he must make a radical choice/change in his way of life. I think Morrison is heavily foreshadowing that Milkman will soon walk on the other side of the street.
ReplyDelete-Anna
I really enjoyed this chapter, mostly because of Milkman's description of his relationship with Hagar. He seems to only enjoy her company when she plays games with him and won't come to him easily, but as time goes on she obviously begins to grow old of this routine, and as Morrison says, "Hagar was thirty-six and nervous" (98) and she wants to start a family. This sentiment is exactly what turns Milkman off. Another part that interested me was the fact that in addition to sleeping with Hagar, he also was seeing the "read-headed bitch" (103) from the wealthy family, and yet he won't commit to either.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter really expands on milkman a lot. As Milkman noticed himself he has been diverging at least since the day that he punched his father and walked on the other side of the road meaning that he has been this way for roughly 10 years (early 20's to 31). Milkman has become really isolated by the end of his chapter as he is bored of Hagar and the whole town. He has been diverging with Guitar for quite awhile but only really noticed after Guitar pointed out how different they are. This shows that Milkman wants to think that he is the same as Guitar who in turn represents the common people but in actions takes a "higher tone" and clearly shows some elitists tendencies furthered by his involvement with the honore and the beach house owners. I had thought hitting Macon was an act of defiance but it seems Milkman has become more and more like his father in his profession and thoughts. He is clearly unsure of what he wants in life and also clearly ignorant of the situations in the town as pointed out by Freddie. His experience almost seems like an adolescent crisis of confusion even though he his now in his 30's.
ReplyDeleteI like seeing MM's crisis as "adolescent"... Very true.
DeleteI really enjoyed, after Macon had explained to Milkman the situation with Macon and Ruth, when Milkman was over analyzing the situation with his mother and grandfather.He would come up with theory after theory about the twisted relationships between Dr. Foster and Ruth and then about his relationship with Ruth and then dismiss them right after coming up with them.I think in a way this draws a parallel between Macon and Milkman because it is clear Macon went through the same process when he first found Ruth naked with death Dr. Foster, of hypothesizing and dismissing his unpleasant thoughts because he didn't really want to believe any of them were true. I also liked it because it speaks to real life in that if you over think anything it blows it out of proportion.
ReplyDelete~Lily
ha! don't think too much!
DeleteMy favorite part of this chapter was when after talking to Guitar, Milkman finds himself walking down the street where "everyone was going the other way". I think this was a very good example of Milkman realizing that he isn't exactly leading his life into any productive place, his lack of commitment to either Hagar or any of the other women, his uncomortable relationship with his family, and his lack of involvement with much else not having to do with the path his father lay out for him. The entire wold is walking with certainty in one direction, whereas Milkman is struggling to fight the crowd, getting "shoved" as people disregard him and go on there way.
ReplyDelete-Lena
What interests me most so far is how few of the characters seem to have any range. As Guitar pointed out, Milkman is a very predictable person who enjoys his comforts and avoids seriousness at all costs. He is the opposite of his father, who is always very serious. Hagar is unstable in many ways, but I still don't feel as though she's a deep character we're yet to understand, I think her personality is defined by how unstable she is. The sisters never receive much personality, Reba is consistent in only being represented as helpless with men, and Guitar is often quite the stubborn pessimist. The two characters who I personally have trouble understanding and therefore predicting are Pilate and Ruth. Both have many defining features, like Plate's singing and defense of her family, but chapter by chapter we are scraping further down into the core of who they are. Once again I'm surprised at how little depth the main character has compared to his mom and aunt.
ReplyDelete~Rebecca
While reading chapter 4 I felt like Milkmen is trying to find himself and Morrison is showing this because the chapter goes in a fast pace from Milkmen’s thoughts to feelings and actions. Milkmen does not know who he is. While he goes Christmas Shopping he feels he can not find anything good for Hagar his lover, he feels that she is not exciting anymore in the relationship. Milkmen describes their relationship as something “… free, abundant, it had lost its fervor…”(pg 91) Milkmen losing the excitement of loving Hagar scares Milkmen because loving Hagar held him together from his weird family.
ReplyDeleteI think how it is really interesting how Milkmen has to hold on something such as Hagar to feel like he is wanted. Milkmen knows that when he lets go of Hagar and that is what he did in the end of the chapter he is going to feel really empty inside but by the end of the chapter he felt better like something has changed and he wanted to change, he thought to himself "he ought to get married... Maybe I should too..." (pg 107)
The back and forth dialogue shows us a lot more about what kind of people the characters are because of the kind of interactions they have with one another. However, we only interpret the conversations to portray certain things because Morrison develops our perceptions for us. For example, we only see Hagar as "odd, funny, quirky company, spoiled, but artlessly so..." because Morrison lays out her traits. (98) While Hagar's words in conversation do not contradict Milkman's description of her, they would not cause us to deduce that Hagar is an unusual person. Additionally, we learn the most about Milkman through what Guitar tells him about his personality. Prior to when Guitar asks Milkman, "What do you call a lecture? When YOU don't talk for two seconds? When you have to listen to somebody else instead of talk? Is that a lecture?" the reader would never randomly assume that Milkman tends to dominate conversation. (103) We also never see the contrast between what Guitar and Milkman focus on until Guitar accuses Milkman of having a shallow lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteYes, Morrison is pretty active here. Nice point.
DeleteWhile reading chapter 4, I found Milkman's disinterest to be intriguing. He has completely lost interest in Hagar. His reason for this is simply "her refisal to make him hustle for it, work for it, do something difficult for it" (91). However, it is mentioned that Hagar and Milkman had been together for "more than a dozen years" (91). This made me wonder...why is Milkman just deciding to break up with her now? Is he finally looking to grow up and leave his boyhood crush behind? It seems odd to me that even though Milkman has obviously thought about this a lot, and been displeased with his relationship for a while, it's taken him until now to actually let Hagar go.
ReplyDeleteWe find out even more about Milkman by the way he treats Hagar. It reminded me of Gatsby's love for Daisy, in the sense that it is potentially superficial. Milkman is mesmerized by Hagar for so long, he chases after her and longs to be with her. But it's the chase that apparently held his interest for so many years. Once he actually gets her, and she stops going back and forth in letting him have her, he loses interest. it's interesting to see how that relationship so quickly changes. Now, it's Hagar who is dependent on Milkman and is devoted to him. When Milkman eventually breaks it off, Hagar is more effected than Milkman first anticipated.
ReplyDeleteI also find it horrifying how he describes her as a third beer. No girl should ever be considered a third beer. "What difference does it make?" Well, it should make a great deal of difference. If Hagar was aware that this is how Milkman viewed her, and stayed with him, having sex with him, shame on her.
DeleteI'm intrigued by the relationship between julianna and JULIANNA XIABAI GOLDRING, and I hope the class will get to explore it further.
Delete-ben
I find it slightly odd that Milkman and Hagar are technically related. They have some sort of relationship in which Milkman sort of emulates Macon's behavior to Ruth in the first chapter of the novel. In addition, Milkman ruins his friendship with Guitar. It seems as though this novel follows the cliché that though we all doomed to become our parents, despite tireless efforts to avoid it. In chapter 3, Milkman alters his appearance to avoid looking like his father. This chapter highlights the similarities between Milkman and Macon.
ReplyDelete-Ofir Lebenthal
I really enjoyed this chapter because it was the first time we've seen Milkman actually think about his life seriously. Before, he had started to think about Hagar and started to think about his job, but here, after his conversation with Guitar, he realizes that "if he had to spend the rest of his life thinking about rents and property, he;'d lose his mind... But he was going to spend the reset of his life doing just that, wasn't he?" (107) Not only does Milkman start to think ahead to where his life is going, he realizes that this direction may not be the right one for him. Therefore, I think soon he is going to make some big changes in his life.
ReplyDeleteI found chapter 4 to be incredibly interesting. Nothing strange involving Ruth happened and I was fully immersed in the story Morrison wrote out. At the moment, it is interesting how Milkman has become so distant from Guitar. Towards the end of the chapter, we learn that Guitar has been acting weird around Milkman, because he may be helping Empire State, who possibly killed a white child. It was also interesting to learn more abou the relationship between Milkman and Hagar. I do find it weird that they're cousins, but it should not be a surprise since this family is absolutely bizarre! Finally though I am really enjoying this novel because it has a really interesting plot.
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between Hagar and Milkman is an interesting one. Milkman sees her as more of a distraction than an actual love interest. Things like love and sex are almost like material pleasures to him, which reminded me of Macon and his attitude towards Ruth. Despite his frivolous attitude, which are a direct retaliation against his father and an attempt to become essentially the opposite of Macon, I think he is somewhat similar. While he doesn't have direct similarities to his father, its almost as if he and his father have the same faults of not properly valuing the important things in their life, such as their relationships or there friends. The entire process of Guitar and Milkman growing farther apart is reminiscent of Macon's stone cold actions as a businessman taking over his actual personality.
ReplyDelete-JD Nurme
There is really no positive depiction of women in this entire book. Hagar is too old, clingy, and no longer alluring; Pilate is a crazy person that will go through any means of protecting her children, even if it's nearly cutting a means heart open; Reba is meek and falls in love too easily. She just searches and gives everything she has for love, making her dependent on men. Ruth is strange and creepy for reasons we still have not discovered. She also had no motivation or drive to live, she plants bulbs because she has to, not because it makes her happy. Milkman's sisters are dry and boring. Why are women portrayed to negatively if the author is a woman herself?
ReplyDeleteAre the men portrayed any better?! I personally think Morrison has written Pilate in a pretty idealized way--according to Morrison's ideals, that is--but I appreciate your perspective!
DeleteThis book is getting weirder and weirder, and I'm really liking it. The "dream" that Milkman has is shocking, and weird, and I'm sure it has some hidden meaning that I just don't understand, but that's ok. The idea of Ruth almost being eaten by carnivorous tulips is a nightmarish thought. As far as Danielle's point about there being no likable women in the book, I would put it the other way around and say there are no likable men. The men in this book are almost uniformly misogynistic; the only really likable one to an extent is guitar, but he is whiny and self-righteous. Pilate on the other hand is awesome, strong in mind, body, and personality, if a little off in the head. When she sticks her knife into Reba's abusive boyfriend, I was very happy because finally there is someone doing an awesome action, being strong and resisting wrongdoing in a positive way without alterior motives. I just think in general most of the characters in this book are very messed up and are dislikable.
ReplyDelete~Daniel Krane
I really enjoy the book and find Milkman an interesting character to read about but the way in which the book is written is really starting to bother me. The jumping around from place to place as well as different ages is getting increasingly confusing.I enjoyed when Guitar was lecturing Milkman basically saying that Milkman needed to grow up and see the issues of the world, but I find it frusterating as the reader to not be able to track Milkman's child-like behavior on my own and make connections because it is too difficult to figure out what age he is at what time.
ReplyDelete~Lily
While reading Chapter Four I became more intrigued with the ongoing trait of Milkman only wanting what he cant have. This is very apparent with his relationship with Hagar. When Milkman and Hagar initially become involved Milkman is very interested while Hagar "teases" him. However, once Hagar displays her interest in Milkman he only continues the relationship because of the sexual contact and not because of his emotional interest in her. I feel as though this derives from Milkman's very sheltered lifestyle that started at young age.
ReplyDeleteJake Bamberger
As Jake and many others said, Milkman enjoys the games Hagar use to play with him, but now that she is just putting herself out there for him, he has begun to lose emotional interest. Again, Milkman experiences more and more confusion as he enters his adult life. And on top of Milkman's love life confusion, his talk with Freddie must have left him thinking as well. Freddie leads Milkman on like he knows of something, but won't tell him exactly what, "Yep. Some strange goings on round here. But don't put my name in it if you hear anything"(111). Freddie gets Milkman thinking, but won't give him too much information.
ReplyDelete-Jack Corcoran
I found it very interesting how Milkman only seemed interested in something that confused him. When he was spurned and abused by Hagar, he was obsessed with her, yet one they understood each other she became boring. On the same note, he does not like real estate because he knows it, and now that he has begun to understand the relationship between his parents and in a smaller way the family dynamic, he immediately wants to be anywhere but home.
ReplyDeleteFamiliarity breeds contempt...
DeleteI agree with Jake somewhat but I also think that Milkman's feelings stem from his never really being satisfied. The beginning of their relationship was somewhat of a cat and mouse game with Hagar teasing Milkman, but once Hagar devoted herself more to Milkman he didn't like it. Immediately, "he tried to think of a way out" (98). I think, for a multitude of reasons, Milkman thought of his relationship with Hagar as a fling. He tries to mature and turn into his own man and does so by ending his relationship with Hagar and moving on.
ReplyDeleteSo far I have really enjoyed The Song of Solomon. I find it particularly interesting that none of the characters seem to be able to find a happy balance. Macon has taken the role of humorless, hard working and cold, scary man, Ruth is teetering around finding happiness in the small, semi masochistic ways (tormenting her husband and planting flowers that may or may not kill her), Pilate is a crazy, protective, mother nature figure, Milkman is a lost looser, Hagar is the spoiled one, Reba gives everything away, and Guitar is quickly becoming Mr. Philosophy and life lessons. These characters are far from one dimensional, they are very complex, however they all seem to be extremes. Furthermore none of these extremes seem to compliment each other particularly well.
ReplyDelete~Marie Kolarik
I really enjoyed the part when Hagar read Milkman's break up letter and sets off "to find MIlkman Dead." (P.99) I think this is a great foreshadow to the upcoming parts of the book and I also found it very humorous. As if by being born with such a depressing last name inevitably brings you to face death in the most horrible way. I also enjoyed that Milkman is aware that sleeping with his cousin is wrong, maybe he's more similar to his twisted mom than we think.
ReplyDelete-Keinan
Sleeping with cousins is a long tradition among many cultures, and is only seen as "wrong" be some cultures. Among European royalty, for instance, marrying cousins was not just okay, it was positively encouraged!
DeleteI am enjoying song of solomon so far, mainly because I enjoy seeing the family dynamics develop as well as the characters. They are changing but not necessarily improving. Milkman changes a lot throughout the first 4 chapters and shifts through large periods of time, but he doesn't seem to mature in a positive way. I like this aspect because I'm excited to see what crazy things Milkman will do next.
ReplyDelete-Chloe Fishman
I was really enjoying Song of Solomon but this chapter and chapter three has made the book less enjoyable. I enjoy books more when the main character is someone who I can easily root for or like. And as the book is going on I am starting to like Milkman less, like Guitar said, he is quite a spoiled guy who only thinks about himself and as I read I keep hoping that on the next page to come Milkman will have a revelation and change for the better but I have a sinking feeling that this won't be happening any time soon.
ReplyDeleteElla MacVeagh
MM will change, but for me he never becomes really appealing, and like you I enjoy the book less because of it--but I still do enjoy it, because it's so densely and richly written...
DeleteIn Chapter Four of the Big Book of Incest, a lot changes. Guess what stays the same? I'm hopeful for an incest-less chapter in the coming pages now that Milkman has dumped Hagar, but I've been burned before. Time is moving very fast in the book so far. We've traveled 30 years in four chapters. Either Morrison will slow down or we'll be reading about Milkman's grandkids by the end of the book, assuming he leaves his aimless bachelor phase and starts a family. Given the book's focus on family so far, that could be a logical place for the plot to go. If we do get there, it will probably be after a lot of painful character development on the part of THE MILKMAN. I'll admit, I have no idea where this book is going, other than chronologically forward. There are a lot of plot threads and whatnot. Top notch stuff.
ReplyDeleteThe relationship over the years between Hagar and Milkman is fascinating and is easily relatable to other adolescents and their relationships. By the time Milkman is seventeen he loses his "twelve-year-old's adoration" (98) for Hagar. Milkman is just like many other boys his age, and not soon after Hagar fell for him, he stopped viewing her as unobtainable. Milkman progressively becomes less and less interested in Hagar and after stretching "his carefree boyhood out for thirty-one years" (98) he dumps her. Throughout this entire ordeal we question Milkman's sincerity about feelings toward Hagar. Morrison makes us question Milkman's sincerity by adding the simple phrase "he would say", showing that Milkman is saying that the breakup "hurt him" more as a formality.
ReplyDeleteCorey Grill
This chapter continues to deepen the level of strange family dynamics going on in the story. There is also a lot going on that seems a bit scattered and Morrison brings up many themes and historical references that haven't yet seemed to completely connect. One thing, however, is quite clear. This family is messed up! Not only is the relationship between Hagar and Milkman strange, but it is even going on after Pilate said that they should treat each other like brother and sister. It feels like Morrison is throwing a bunch of stories in the background and constantly bringing them to the surface whenever its convenient. Not that it isn't a well written book but I do hope that it begins to converge on a coherent plot. We have incest/love, coming of age, family, and even some racial topics that are brought up. A positive thing I do have to say is that the historical references certainly strengthen Guitar's passion for his cause, especially after what we talked about in class. The pace also seems a bit jumbled. The book seems to jump around Milkman's life to the most exciting parts, which in itself isn't a bad idea, but its hard to keep track of everything that's going on when there are two to ten year gaps.
ReplyDeleteEach time we are presented with an apparent turning point for milkman in the story, we are immediately reminded of the small child which resides in the now 32 year old body. I would think that after the profound metaphor of people in the street, or the strange conversation with Macon, some character development would start to kick in. Unfortunately, the only thing changed so far is that Milkman starts to notice that his life is worthless, yet he is determined to do nothing about it. I guess these sudden personality changes are more for Rocky Balboa montages than anything else, but i would assume that something would happen within the many years Morrison skips over throughout the book. Milkman lives his life like he did as a child, frivolously having sex with relatives, drinking with the local workers, and being oblivious. Morrison tricks the reader with proverbial red herrings over and over, lulling us into a false sense that the story will finally pick up, but so far no such luck. Eventually she will have to start the imminent personal journey which Milkman must embark on, and I'm hoping he starts soon.
ReplyDelete-Mike w
While I found the talk of ghosts interesting, my mind kept coming back to when Pilate took the knife. We may take this scene for granted since we are very familiar with this idea of a calm killer (even though she didn't kill the man). But at the time, this idea was fairly new. If this was written earlier, Pilate might have grabbed the knife, ran out, and and actually stabbed him. But instead she channeled her emotions and kept a steady hand. When I was "watching" it happen, I thought she would just hold it to his neck. When she actually stabbed him, that really surprised me. Not that she wasn't capable of it, but that Morrison would actually have her do that. I also found it weird that right after this arguably traumatic event, Milkman and Hagar go into the house and have sex. I suppose that sort of scene (Pilate getting violent) wasn't all that unusual for them, but it was for me, and it seemed like a weird place to go to after that happened.
ReplyDelete-Sam P
I found it very interesting in chapter four how Milkman doesn't really care about Hagar and is indifferent to her being there. He doesn't want to be in a relationship there are merely engages in sexual relations with her primarily because she is there at his disposal. I thought it was amusing that he was with Hagar for upwards of a decade, with no interest in becoming serious or marriage, and then decides to write her a letter telling her they are no longer going to see each other. I thought this was interesting because one, at this point Milkman is in his 30's and should be mature enough to face his problems head on, and two the letter shows that Milkman is very feeble in weak in the sense that he does have the character enough to talk to Hagar one on one. This chapter tells a lot about Milkman and his substance as a character.
ReplyDelete-Jordan Bayer
This chapter showed Milkman realizing a lot of things about himself. He realizes how different him and Guitar really are. Milkman always seemed to look up to Guitar as a sort of role model. Realizing that he is so different from Guitar, who in a way represents the regular societally normal black man, leaves Milkman feeling isolated. This feeling of isolation only grows as he get more and more bored with Hagar.
ReplyDelete-pema
It seems that Milkman's depression seems to deepen through every chapter. After he finally begins a romantic relationship with Hagar, who Milkman adored from the moment he layed his eyes on, he never seems to truly appreciate her as a girlfriend, but more of as an object, or a "third beer." Another important part of his childhood that he strays away from is his best friend, Guitar. I think these negative decisions are vaugely affected by his father. Just as Macon Dead hates the lower class, Milkman feels no affection towards his childhood sweetheart because of her lower social class.
ReplyDeleteInteresting--could be about class...
DeleteEach chapter seems to revolve around a different stage or process in Milkman's life, in the last it was about his coming of age and self discovery, whereas in this chapter he is discovering his relationships and how he relates with others. For example, he emits a trend of deteriorating relationships, such as his relationships with Hagar and Guitar. In this chapter he grows farther apart from his closest and only childhood friend (Guitar). He also becomes bored with his girlfriend, Hagar, who he views as just a sexual object after she stops their chase and shows him how much she loves him. Whether it's because of his parent's terrible relationship or because of some other reason, Milkman clearly has a relationship problem with people around him (he seems to lose interest quickly in people he once cared greatly for.
ReplyDelete-Siena
This chapter shows milkman growing up an changi in a lot of ways. His relationship with guitar is changing a lot and not for the better. In chapter 3 milkmans dialogue didn't seem to fit the vocabulary of a 22 yr old, but in this chapter now that he is 31 he sounds much older and more world weary.
ReplyDeleteGabby st Pierre
I've enjoyed reading Song of Solomon so far. I'm intrigued as to how Milkman's character will develop over the course of the rest of the novel since so far, he has yet to change much--he has "stretched his carefree boyhood out for thirty-one years" (98) and continues to live his hedonistic lifestyle without giving any thought to serious issues. He has followed in his father's footsteps in completely devaluing women; perhaps the most disturbing example of this is how he refers to Hagar as his "private honey pot" and, even worse, a "third beer" (91). He cares about nothing--not money, politics, racial issues--and he is becoming increasingly disconnected from Guitar and the rest of the black community.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, I found the passage about Winnie Ruth very interesting. During that time period, many whites used the same logic about black urban violence, so I think it's interesting to read the reverse: "white madness" accounts for the murders, which are considered "lunatic," whereas all murders perpetrated by blacks were "for good reasons" (100).
Well, I don't really know what your asking,but I liked chapter 4. My favorite part was when Freddie is talking to Milkman about ghosts. I thought it was funny how Freddie is convinced how there is a white bull running around. I think the white bull could be a white doctor, since it took Freddie after he was born. I also liked the time shifts in the chapter because the shifts showed how Milkman matures in a interesting way.
ReplyDeleteI am enjoying the constant drama of this book, however have begun to realize that seems as though Milkman slowly and slowly has less people he can trust in this town especially when he finds out that Guitar may have been involved in the death of a white boy. It seems that the story has really stepped out of the family and is now only focusing on Milkman, So i wonder and hope that Morisson somehow brings the story back to where it began (which I'm sure she will because she is a very clever author). Also, the conversation with the janitor reveals that maybe Milkman is becoming a "whole man" because he is living life on his own and I think learning a lot about himself and who he wants to be.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter, the reader gets an even greater insight of Milkmans problems, and his insecurities. He does not seem to fit in with the rest of society, and takes every oppurtunity he can to prove this to the reader. Wether it be his argument with Guitar, or his weird distant relationship with his mother, Milkman seems to have become very strange. The tension in this book is running high, and im interested to see what comes of it.
ReplyDelete-Chris
I like the timing of the book - jumping from the present to multiple distinct points in Milkman's story compliments one's natural train of thought. The first incident - at Pilate's house - is well made because it serves both to explain the plot and to add crucial information on Pilate, Reba and Hagar's personalities that doesn't directly pertain to the current situation. The second one is necessary to set up the break in Guitar and Milkman's friendship, to illustrate their impossible differences, but I feel like it is a bit too much. The third incident seems to add the least to the story, but it is a pleasant switch of mood and atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting how Guitar and Milkman begin to go down separate paths in chapter 4, and may even be a reflection of the larger divide happening within the black community in the 1960s. Lines like "Bayonet, friend" (101) and "Belleau Wood" (101) (which is actually not possible due to the no black Marine Corps policy during WW1) show how the World Wars, where African Americans began to see the rest of the world, began to give blacks a different view of their world. This new world view was transferred to Guitar who "love to kill [Orval Faubus]." (101) Guitar's desire to kill a white governor represents the growing Black Power movement in the 1960s that claimed to seek equality through force. Additionally, Guitar's "bushy... hair" (101) is indicative of the rebellious hippie movement of the 1960s as well that had some connection to the Black Power movement. These movements (represented by Guitar) clashed with the bulk of society (represented by Milkman) who both came to the realization that they "can't always think the same way about things." (102) Moreover, this chapter's conflict between Guitar and Milkman brings to a small scale, the conflict between the "mainstream" and diverging movements of the 1960s specifically in black America.
ReplyDelete-Colby
I think that one of the great ironies of this chapter is how Milkman -- perhaps unconsciously -- becomes increasingly similar to Macon Jr.; particularly, it's ironic that, before, he would do everything possible to outwardly separate himself from his father, like by growing out his facial hair and smoking. Yet now, in how Milkman's relationship with Hagar evolves, we can actually see a clear parallel with how Macon Jr. treats Ruth.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, note Milkman's evolution from being absolutely transfixed with Hagar to sending her a letter that indicates the end of their relationship. At first, "From the time he first saw her, when he was twelve and she was seventeen, he was deeply in love with her..."(92) Yet, Milkman now describes Hagar as a "third beer"(91), clearly showing a lack of respect and indifference towards her. Later, we learn that although Milkman appears to be kindly departing her, she is impacted terribly be his seemingly innocent words, as "the flat-out coldness of 'thank you'... sent Hagar spinning into a bright blue place where the air was thin..."(99)
Finally, we learn of Milkman's indifference and cavalier attitude when he states, "He was still distracted and edgy, and all of it was not because of the problem of Hagar."(99) This is telling, because such a long lasting relationship clearly did not have any impression on him.